Decolonising Education and Social Work - Part 1
Podcast Episode Show Notes
How to cite/reference this podcast episode: Mason, T. (Host & Producer), Jeffrey, E. (Host & Producer), McKnight, A. (Guest), Stewart, K. (Guest), Sullivan, C. (Guest), Findlay, S. M. (Guest), Joseph, B. L. (Producer), Fox, M. (Producer), Sharma, A. (Producer), Murphy, L. (Producer) & Stech, J. (Producer). (2026, April 1). Decolonising Education and Social Work - Part 1 (Season No. 1, Episode No. 3)[Audio podcast episode]. In Social Work Teach. Social Work Media. https://socialwork.media/socialworkteach/episode3
Episode Title: Decolonising Education and Social Work - Part 1
Release Date: 1 April 2026
Duration: 65 minutes
Music: ‘Mopeds’ by Beat Mekanik (Licence: CC 4.0 International)
Produced by: Thomeissa ‘Meissa’ Mason, Emily Jeffrey, Dr Ben Joseph (Western Sydney University), Professor Mim Fox (University of Wollongong), Dr Alankaar Sharma (University of Wollongong), Lis Murphy, and Justin Stech
Episode Host(s): Thomeissa ‘Meissa’ Mason & Emily Jeffrey
Episode Guest(s): Associate Professor Anthony McKnight (University of Wollongong); Karlie Stewart; Professor Corrinne Sullivan (Western Sydney University); and Associate Professor Summer May Findlay (University of Wollongong)
Episode Overview: In this episode of Social Work Teach, the hosts and guests discuss the importance of decolonising education and social work. Emily, a Wabunga Yuin woman, and Meissa, a Wiradjuri, Gomeroi and Awabakal queer woman, introduce the series by emphasising the need for critical reflection and accountability. They interview several Aboriginal academic scholars, including Associate Professor Anthony McKnight, who stresses the significance of reconnecting with Country and understanding Aboriginal knowledge systems. The connect with Karlie Stewart, a social worker and educator, who shares her methods for fostering self-reflective practices in her students. They yarn with Professor Corrinne Sullivan who highlights the importance of respect and reciprocity in collaborating with Indigenous scholars. And they hear from Associate Professor Summer May Findlay, who discusses the importance of building relationships in research projects as well as emphasises the need for flexibility and genuine interest in engaging with Aboriginal people. The conversation underscores the necessity of relationality in decolonising education and social work learning.
About the Guest(s)
Name: Associate Professor Anthony McKnight
Position: Director Early Start: Culture and Community
Institution/Organisation: University of Wollongong
Area of Expertise: Anthony McKnight is Awabakal, Gamaroi and continues to be ‘grown up’ by his Yuin Cultural lines on the South Coast of NSW. Anthony is a Cultural man, father, husband, grandfather, uncle, son, grandson, brother, cousin, nephew and friend. For the past 30 years Anthony has continuously been involved in Aboriginal Education through a range of roles and educational institutions. Anthony has recently co-authored Research for Educators (Cengage 2023) inviting researchers to embedded Aboriginal research protocols and methodology in educational research.
Name: Karlie Stewart
Position: Community & Culture Lead
Institution/Organisation: Weave Youth & Community Services
Area of Expertise: Yuin woman living on Bidjigal land, dog mum and pizza enthusiast. Social worker with 10+ yrs of experience across the community and academic/university sector. My work is grounded in anti-racist, anti-oppressive and trauma-informed theory, practice and frameworks; this guides my approach to healing-centred practice in Aboriginal communities. As an Aboriginal woman, I am committed to genuine, sustainable and meaningful change in Community for Mob. I am a self-determined and autonomous woman, guided by my accountability to my family, my community, and Aboriginal people across the Australian continent. Currently employed as the Community & Culture Lead at Weave Youth & Community Services working across our four sites on Gadigal and Bidjigal lands (Sydney City and South East Sydney). Currently a Director on the Board of Just Reinvest NSW and Co-Chair of the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Healing Foundation's Youth Reference Group. Previously a board member of Waminda (South Coast Women’s Health & Welfare Aboriginal Corporation) and NSW Council of Social Services. Part time artist (@katungalart - instagram) when it feels good to create.
Name: Professor Corrinne Sullivan
Position: Director of Indigenous Research
Institution/Organisation: Western Sydney University
Area of Expertise: Indigenous education, particularly in curriculum and pedagogy development, has led to significant contributions to government policy, institutional practice, and community-based services and resources.
Name: Associate Professor Summer May Findlay
Position: Associate Professor, Aboriginal Health
Institution/Organisation: University of Wollongong
Area of Expertise: Dr Summer May Finlay (CSCA, TAE, GC-EDHE, BSocSC, MPHA, and PhD) is a Yorta Yorta woman and Associate Professor at the University of Wollongong. She has over 20 years of experience working in and with Indigenous organisations, tertiary sector, local, state and federal governments. Over the last 10 years, Finlay has established an extensive and unique research program in Indigenous health. Her program, with a focus on Indigenous health service delivery, policy and overcoming health disparities, is driving change. It encompasses young Aboriginal people, mixed methods health services research in Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander primary care, and evaluations and women’s health, offering a fresh perspective on these critical areas.
Implications for Social Work Educators
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Resources and Further Reading
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Podcast Episode Transcript
Dr Ben Joseph 00:13
You're listening to Social Work Teach. Social Work Teach dives into the pedagogy and practice that social work educators use to teach skills, knowledge and values, both in the classroom and in the field. This podcast aims to explore what, how and why we teach what we teach. Throughout these episodes, you'll hear from experienced educators, you'll hear from curious educators, and you'll hear from students in the midst of their studies. Once you listen to the episode, make sure you have a look at the episode show notes, where we identify a number of different resources to help you do your own deep dive into the topic and give you a way to start enacting the pedagogy that you've been hearing about. Social Work Teach is a Social Work Media production. We acknowledge the traditional owners of the unceded lands these recordings have been made on and pay respects to elders past and present, and acknowledge ongoing First Nations sovereignty.
Meissa 01:29
Before we begin, we acknowledge and pay our respects to the traditional owners of the lands on which we had the pleasure of recording these conversations, the Dharawal people. We further acknowledge that sovereignty has never been ceded, and call attention to the strength and resistance of First Nations' peoples across the country and abroad in the face of the ongoing impacts of colonialism. We extend our respect and thank all the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people who have contributed to our discussions and the broader conversation surrounding decolonization, and extend that respect to all indigenous listeners who have tuned into our yarn today.
Meissa 02:05
In this podcast, we'll be discussing confronting topics such as the Stolen Generations, racism, discrimination, mental health and recounting historical events. These are difficult topics for many people, and we encourage you not to listen to this episode if now is not the right time. We encourage you to seek support if you need it, and have provided some mental health resources in the episode description below.
Emily 02:35
Hi everyone. My name is Emily, and I am a very proud Wabunga Yuin woman from the south coast of New South Wales. I had the absolute pleasure of growing up on Wiradjuri country in the central west of New South Wales, as well as working on Gadigal country and now living on beautiful Wadawurrung Country in Victoria. I come to this episode, all these episodes, as someone who studied social work and has worked in human service roles alongside other Aboriginal and or Torres Strait Islander peoples and communities. It's been the majority of my work experience, and throughout this time, I've really experienced the ongoing impacts of colonisation, not only on my own lived experience, but really on the experience of others and of First Nations communities across all the places and spaces that I've lived and worked and you know, I also come to this conversation as a family person, as a sister, as a daughter, as someone, as a wife, and as a side note, as a dog parent. So I am really excited to have this, this conversation, and I feel particularly lucky and particularly privileged to be in spaces and places that allow for this conversation.
Meissa 04:48
My name is Meissa. I'm a Wiradjuri Gomeroi and a Awabakal queer woman living and studying on Dharawal country at the University of Wollongong. I've lived on Dharawal country pretty much my whole life. I have also lived on Gadigal country, but I really have always lived on Dharawal country. I'm in my final year of a Bachelor of Arts, double majoring in Indigenous Studies and Sociology and double minoring in modern history and visual arts. Throughout my studies, I've focused on decolonization and particularly intersectionality, specifically in relation to indigenous knowledges, indigenous feminisms, and the intersection of queerness and indigeneity. So these topics are really close to my heart, and I'm really excited to have this yarn with Emily today and to get into some of these conversations. This is a two episode series we've broken down into segments to guide listeners through the conversations that we've had with our four scholars. Today, in the first segment of this first episode, we'll be discussing critical reflection, accountability and decolonizing self. This might be unexpected to some of you listening, but something we spoke about with several of our scholars today was decolonizing self as the first step in working towards decolonizing education and the role of critical reflection as a student, educator and practitioner.
Emily 06:03
I love that we're starting with decolonising self first, and also that we're starting with Associate Professor Anthony McKnight, or he can also be known as Uncle Macca. So Anthony is an Awakabal Gomeroi and Yuin Cultural an and academic at the University of Wollongong Anthony focuses on championing Aboriginal ways of knowing and learning by centreing country at the forefront, his research is all about identifying how and why teachers, students, academic and all people really connect to country to enhance educational practice and healing of self. And his research with its country, informed methodologies contribute to decolonising and reculturalizing educational systems and practices.
Meissa 06:48
I'm excited to get into this one. I've actually gotten to know Uncle Macca a lot better since we've had this interview with him, and I love his focus on country, so let's have a listen to what he spoke about in relation to decolonization, decolonizing self and reconnecting with country.
Associate Professor Anthony McKnight 07:04
But it is I totally agree everything is interconnected. Even my own identity is interconnected between the non Aboriginal side and the Aboriginal side, and I can't separate that and what colonisation gave Aboriginal people. But what I would argue is every person on this planet is colonisation gave everyone separation. That's what I how I see colonisation. It gave us separation, and that separation is from country or from nature or whatever it is, and and how I've been encouraged to take my own learning journey, because it was never told by my elders. This is exactly how you should do it. You are taught to build your own knowledge relationship with country and people, and that everything is in connection. Everything is in oneness. And that's what I'm talking about, in that separation where we had a culture, it was in oneness. And I would argue that every culture across the world at one stage of history was in that oneness with nature. And when I talk about decolonization, it's about unlearning the separation, to relearn in that connection, in that respect.
Associate Professor Anthony McKnight 08:31
So that's, in a way, is, how do we bring two knowledge systems, and in the general sense of Western knowledge, and what I call you got Aboriginal knowledge, indigenous knowledge, but how I define that, and how I've been taught to define that, that is country is our knowledge system. Everything as aboriginal people, we it comes from country. So it's our knowledge system. And then we've also learned another knowledge system, and we're, instead of being forced to learn our knowledge system, because that's not about connections, or we're inviting non Aboriginal people to step into it. That's what in one way, how I see that decolonization or unlearning, to relearn. And you need to be outside. You need to walk, and one of the hardest thing to do is cultural change. So for 200 plus years, there's been a particular culture towards Aboriginal people, and that's it's gonna freak some people out on it's, it's, oh, man, that's just change is difficult, but actually, when you actually step into it, you're looking at the points of connections that exist in all culture. Like one of the basic example is that word respect. Every culture. So there's points, even with respect, that you could find a point of connection, and that's what you look at. Instead of looking at the differences, you got to be aware of them and unpack them and not shy away from them, but you got to start from the things that connect us.
Associate Professor Anthony McKnight 10:20
And there are so many connections, and we're allowed to just what's the old saying, it's okay to agree to disagree, but then that, that word of respect comes in, and it's not about, it's like, it's like, I said, has to be an invitation, and people want to do it because they want want to learn and not keep that separation of that us and them. In the subject that I taught for 15 years the week two was about inviting the students to look at their own culture. So what is a culture of a school? What is the culture of the university? What's your own personal culture? What's the culture of Australia, to identify the taken for granted cultural practices that people from that, like like that. I don't not a big fan of that, that word other, but it is so important to look at yourself, to understand your own culture, to understand the cultural norms that you assume everyone knows, but not everyone from different cultures hold those cultural norms. They're going to be lots of similarities. You knock on the front door. You be respectful, yeah. But that respect could be very different from not looking a woman in the eye to, you know, making sure the elders and the young ones eat first. And other cultures might have make sure it's, you know, the teenagers at first, I don't know but, but there's all these kind of differences that we got to share. You got to understand where you're coming for from before you start working with, not on, but working with people from other cultural backgrounds, all and and the thing that does bring us all together is creeks, trees, plants. And that might confuse people, but if you look at it, the next level of simplicity, we all need fresh water, we all need clean air, we all need food. And the entity that provides that all to us is nature, Mother Earth or different cultures have different understandings of that, and you just respect those understandings and so and to me, the humans, they're we're always going to struggle, if it's just human focused. So to me, the one thing that unites every culture across the world is nature. Because without nature, we we don't exist.
Meissa 13:20
I think Anthony sets the tone for this episode beautifully, as we mentioned in the introduction to this segment, decolonizing and critically reflecting on self is the first step in the broader decolonizing education journey. We must start with ourselves to truly start our decolonial journey and make a difference in the broader movements towards decolonization. Because it really does start with self, if you don't have that perspective to begin with, to reconfigure the way you may have originally thought about things you might continue to misunderstand as you go through this journey.
Emily 13:51
Yeah, and I loved that. That's what Anthony spoke about, particularly that I think he said, I'm learning to relearn. Yes, I love that, and I think that's really important around like we don't know what we don't know, but when we do that's when we have a responsibility to do something. And I think he also really invites us into the into the conversation, and invites us to join, I guess, join in on that critical reflection and joining in on connecting to country, like I think so many nondigenous people that I've spoken to worry about doing the wrong thing or feel like they're losing part of themselves when they they lose part of their identity or culture when they accept First Nations people and culture and ways of knowing, being and doing. And I think it's really important to say, actually, we want you in this space.
Meissa 14:46
And you're just gaining more like rather than losing anything, you're gaining more knowledge and another perspective.
Emily 14:51
I think it really beautifully actually leads to what you know we're going to hear throughout around this that we really need to understand our own culture first and where we're coming from. And I think Anthony spoke to that really lovely.
Emily 15:08
So talking about understanding our own culture and our own norms goes really beautifully into what our next scholar speaks about. And they actually talk about how they do this in the classroom, and they have some really interesting and unique ways to do that. So I'll introduce her. Her name is Carly Stewart, and Carly is a Yuin woman from the south coast of New South Wales. Carly is a social worker and a social work lecturer with experience and expertise supporting children, young people and families. Carly is passionate about healing for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples, particularly from intergenerational trauma and the impact of historical and current government interventions. So Carly not only speaks about critical reflection in the classroom, but how to foster an environment for genuine, self reflective practices for students. And what I really like about this conversation is, whilst Carly is speaking from a social work lecturer point of view, it's something that we can expand for all students in a university context and more broadly, to be honest. So let's dive into here some of the things that Carly does in her classroom.
Karlie Stewart 16:22
You know, there's a way of encouraging people gently and and letting people know I always come back to what they care about. Why are you doing this? That's why I asked them that question all the time. Who are you? What do you care about? Why you're doing this?
Karlie Stewart 16:41
participant in this world of social work, like I am choosing to do this. And so what does that mean, then, if I'm choosing to do this, and how do I get to be the best social worker I can be? Who are the people I care about working with? What kind of work do I care about doing and inviting them into considering what that means for their career? No use me sitting here telling someone you got to do this, this, this and this. They don't care. People are only going to do it as much as they want to do it like you can't, my belief is that you can't hold somebody accountable. They can only be accountable exactly and so, you know, yeah, there's we set up processes in class to make sure that it's a safe space for students to be able to access those kind of bigger conversations about themselves. For example, the first class of semester we do, there's two things that I do. One of them is I get everyone in a circle and away from desks. Let's all sit in a circle in our chairs, and the first thing I do is go anti clockwise. Because for me, the teaching is we go anti clockwise, right? And that's to symbolise a number of things culturally. But I let them know that this is a cultural thing. We're going anti clockwise. I pick someone. We start with you. I want to know who you are, what country you were born on, as in Black Country, where were you born, and what country you currently live and work on, and what's something you do to look after country. That's immediately getting the roots in cultural perspectives, yeah, having a cultural lens to work, but it also gives me, as the teacher, an idea of who are the people that are further along in this journey in this classroom, and so I start to position people in my class right? It's very strategic way of just being like, here's who I know are going to be the ones who are going to need more support. And as a good teacher should do, I move around the room a lot. I'm crouching down to their level when they're sitting at tables. I'm zoning in on them when I'm noticing they're being a little bit quiet, or maybe I can see on their faces that they're processing something difficult, and I give them the opportunity to speak to that. So the first part is identifying who's who in the room and where they're at. Usually it's older students, more mature age students, just because they've had a different educational background, to younger students.
Karlie Stewart 19:01
And then the second thing I do in that first class is set up group agreements. And I know this is a very typical social work thing. Let's have a group agreement. It's part of that forming groups thing that we all do as social workers. For me, it's deeper than that. I ask questions like, What do you need from your peers to be able to learn in this space? If you tell me that it's respect, how will you know that you're being respected? What does respect mean to you? So actually, we spend probably 40 minutes on that process, whereas in other classrooms, they might go, stay off your phone, be on time, respect each other's opinions, you know, like they just riddle off the same things they've done for the last four years in the first classes. Yeah, and so for me, it's like setting up safety so we can have those deeper conversations, identifying support people. People in the room, through doing that process, their peers can also see from one another how they're going to show up. You're going to know who you can go to for support. So it's more about setting up the classroom in a way that there's safety in built, but also saying to them, we need to have these conversations. If we're not going to have these conversations, there is absolutely no use in us having this class practice with Aboriginal Torres Strait Islander people. There's no use, there's no use in having bigger conversations about self. So how do we do it in a way where, yeah, we can really access those deeper parts of ourselves. We have a lot of conversations about the brain. So I quite you know gracious about we're all conditioned in a particular way. Humans, we're socially conditioned, and the deepest parts of our brains is where that conditioning lives. And so giving them an opportunity to be gracious with themselves and have some forgiveness for themselves is an important way to approach these conversations, but knowing that ultimately it's got to come from them, there's no use me sitting here telling them what to do, telling them how to reflect, telling them what they need to think about, or telling them where the weaknesses are or the gaps are or the limitations are in their own thinking. That's not my responsibility. You know, like I can't, no, no, no, and I can't. I also can't incorporate that teaching. I can't integrate that teaching for them. They have to do that, and they have to care enough to do that. So yeah, just setting up the classroom in a way where we're able to do that, identifying key people, telling them,boundaried, have a break if you need to. These are big conversations that we're going to have. I'm going to ask you to do some reflection. I'm going to ask you to position yourself in all of this. Have a break if you need to, but know that black fellows, we don't get to have a break from this stuff.
Meissa 21:49
I love how Karlie pointed out that we as students are not passive participants in education. I think some people don't really think about that, you know, like we're here because we actively chose to be and we should be reflecting on why. Students are not always taught or expected to reflect on themselves, their positioning and their peers, or show up in an educational spaces through their background or culture.
Emily 22:11
I was going to say this is so important. I think because university can be the first time that a lot of us are exposed to these conversations, we know that the high school curriculum doesn't do a good job in teaching us critical reflection or decolonizing the way we work. So I love that Karlie really introduces that into the classroom at this point of your career or your education.
Meissa 22:35
Absolutely, some of the reflection practices on positionality that I've done in classes has literally been the first time some of those students have thought about their positioning at all. And it's especially important for those who are part of a dominant culture and may take their experiences as a given or a normal
Emily 22:50
So interesting, because people can be like, and what you usually get when you ask people to reflect on their culture is like, Oh, I don't know. Like, I'm Australian, yeah. What does that mean? What does it mean to be Australian like you have these ideas, like, the way you eat food is a particular way, the way you turn up to school happens in a particular way. These are all cultural norms that we have been taught throughout our lives. And I love that we're talking about giving people a space to think about, well, why do I do those things.
Meissa 23:21
Absolutely. And I love the way that Karlie opens that space for student reflection in a classroom in such a casual way as well, like a very one on one personal way to just talk about that so that it doesn't frighten anyone.
Emily 23:37
Yeah, one of the things I really liked that Karlie said or talked about was actually putting into practice some things. So not just talking like, I think one of the things she said was that she works anti clockwise, rather than clockwise, and just because we always work clockwise, so I guess disrupting the norm.
Meissa 23:59
Breaking up that norm, yeah, yeah.
Emily 24:01
Even the thing of like sitting in a circle, getting away from behind the desks, like they're all important ways to just disrupt our status quo. And even though we might not consciously think of it at the time, it does begin us to start questioning, like, whoa, why are we going anti clockwise? And if we're thinking about that, then we're forced to think about, well, hold on, why not? Like, why do we go clockwise, usually? So I think that was really clever.
Meissa 24:27
I really love the way that Karlie does talk about putting these things in practice. And I really hope that we've stressed how important this type of critical reflection is for all students, not just social work students. Even though Karlie is from that background. It is very important for students and practitioners and teachers from all disciplines.
Emily 24:46
Totally. I dare to say that most professions are working with people, and if they're not working with people directly, indirectly, and we never know when we're working with a First Nations person or a person from another, another background. It isn't part of our Euro Australian dominant culture here in Australia, so I think it's really, yeah, I again, just totally agree that it's important for everyone, because at some point in our life, we will either come across someone who is Aboriginal and or Torres Strait Islander person, or just a person from another culture that's different from our own.
Emily 25:25
All right, so we've talked about students, and now I want to, or we want to, kind of move to more educators, and how educators can also critically reflect on their practice and use their skills to decolonize their curriculums and educational practices. And to talk about this, I want to bring in our second, our third scholar for the episode, who is Dr Corrinne Sullivan. Corinne is a Wiradjuri woman from the central west of New South Wales. Corrinne is an academic at Western Sydney University, and her work is multidisciplinary, stemming from her background in Indigenous Studies and human geography, she utilises both to understand the ways in which indigenous people are affected by their experience of place and space, and her current research explores the intersections of indigeneity, sexuality and gender diversity.
Meissa 26:20
Corrinne spoke to us extensively about how educators can critically reflect on their practices and use their skills to decolonize their curriculums and educational practices. So where we had Karlie yarn to us about critical reflection for students, Corrinne addressed the role of critical reflection, accountability, humility and decolonizing self for educators, while some non Indigenous listeners may find these reflections blunt or confronting, it is a reality for Aboriginal academics and students in education. Aboriginal people and Aboriginal students are constantly navigating these conversations in academia. Non Indigenous scholars have a real opportunity to make changes in the educational field through their own individual actions and interactions. Our aims for this podcast series are to educate and discuss how we can best move forward towards the future of education. So if you are uncomfortable by anything discussed in this segment or this series more broadly, we encourage you to sit and reflect on it as you continue to listen.
Professor Corrinne Sullivan 27:19
You know, and I don't know how much people actually challenge what it is that they're teaching, or critique what it is they're teaching, or even really think all that deeply. I mean, the amount of times when I've, you know, tried to assist people with more like indigenizing work, you know, I'm like, so who are your indigenous scholars? What are you asking people to read. What have you read? You know, like starting at those spaces first, know what, know what indigenous people say, read a book. You know, it's called Google.
Professor Corrinne Sullivan 27:55
And I find this I find this very distressing, because a lot of people, particularly in tertiary institutions, who teach, are academics. They're trained researchers, and yet will fumble and ring wheel their hands. No, I don't know where to start. I don't know where to look. I don't know. I'm like, You're a fucking researcher. Why research? It's wild. It's wild to me. And you know, if you're in a particular discipline, you should know who are the writers in your discipline. Like you don't necessarily have to read extremely widely, but you know, maybe when your discipline has their annual conference or something, maybe go and see the black falls present. Wild. Well, first of all, you'd need to care about them doing that, right?
Professor Corrinne Sullivan 28:50
So, and it's saying that, you know, there are people doing really incredible work, you know, in the class, in the classroom, in teaching really incredible work, like, I have great colleagues that I'm just, you know, I don't think anyone needs a big round of applause for doing what they should do, but they are doing great work, because the antithesis to them are the people who will say, Well, I don't know what to do, so I won't do anything, you know, and that that, to me, is the biggest problem, and I always say, you are already making and it'll Be because I don't want to make a mistake, right? That's I do want to make a mistake. And I'm like, you're already making a mistake, already making mistake by not doing anything. So you know, you got nothing to lose. And I'd rather people try and make some missteps than not try at all. And we make mistakes. All of us make mistakes. I will wholeheartedly I make mistakes or missteps. I can't pronounce every country I'm in, this, in this larger nation or this continent, if you will. As it turns out, I don't speak 250 or 500 languages. You know, these are not my languages. I have to learn too. And that's something that I feel gets lost on non Indigenous people, is that we have to do the education too, like we have to do education. We have to do our own learning. We have to go and do our own research to learn if we're going to another country, what? What nation is there? Who are the people we have to try and understand if there's complicated histories around land too, where there's different boundaries or different senses of who's the ownership and not tread and tread really carefully, right? We do that work. Do we make mistakes in doing that work? Absolutely. When we get told, Do we say, thank you, thank you. You know, thank you for telling me how to actually pronounce that properly, but you're talking Right, absolutely. And it's not up to everyone, like in insane indigenous studies classroom, for the mob to do the work, or to all the work, or to be educating everyone like I think it's it's ridiculous to think that one person, or even one group of people, will know all the things, like, it's impossible, like educate, like, teaching is about learning, right? That's, that's what teaching is. Teaching is about learning. And you are learning all the time, and if you're not, it's time to go. And sometimes learning things challenges you, and that challenge can be uncomfortable, but you know, comfort never led to success.
Professor Corrinne Sullivan 31:32
You know comfort being uncomfortable is where the challenge lies, where the where the meaning gets built, where, you know, things get forged that make change. I mean, that's how you you it's being uncomfortable that reminds us why we make change.
Meissa 31:47
I think this section from Corrinne is honestly one of the most important for non Indigenous students or academics to really sit with and reflect on. A huge part of committing to this work of decolonizing education as a non Indigenous person is having the humility to sit with discomfort and take personal accountability for the way you interact and practice in education and the impacts that can have. And I really think that Corrinne spoke about this brilliantly.
Meissa 32:14
Yeah, I agree. I think that it's often in these moments that our non Indigenous people listening or trying to learn more, can start to feel really uncomfortable in their gut. They get that little niggly feeling in their gut and that guilty feeling. And, you know, I've I've been there too, and I think that that's where it's really important to recognise that feeling, and that is your little like signal to say you need to be taking action. So, yeah, using that as like, oh God, like, I don't know anything, and I feel so guilty. It's like, well, what can you do now?
Meissa 32:51
Don't shy away from that feeling. Sit with it.
Emily 32:54
Yeah, and that is something I really loved, that Corrinne said, was that if you're not doing something by doing nothing, you're already making a mistake. So yes, you know, worse off, and I think that's so important, because in so many spaces, one of the things, or usually the times that I get asked to speak about Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander, you know, things, is because people are afraid to make the mistake, and it's frustrating because, as Corrinne also talked about is that we have to do our own learning as well. So I really encourage people to be brave and make a mistake, but focus rather on your cultural humility and how you take that mistake on. Yes, so, so important. I also wanted to talk about how Corrinne said, I think people forget to Google it. And I loved this comment, because one of the things that absolutely grinds my gears is when people go like, Oh, I don't know the appropriate language. Now, there are that many resources. Oh, my god, yeah, there are that many resources online, of black fellas who have been paid, for example, to produce these resources or articles that has this information in it, and I often feel like I may as well record myself and just press play, because I'm having the same conversations over and over and over again. And so I know people are scared to use Google, but my hope is that we can find those resources and then use our skills that we've heard from earlier in the podcast around critical reflection around, is this a good resource to pull from? If it's written by an Aboriginal person, for example, on a reputable site, then yeah, it probably is. And you can use the you know that terminology, for example.
Meissa 34:55
I definitely agree. I think people maybe underestimate how many like Aboriginal academic Indigenous academics are out there, like we're writing about things, go read it.
Emily 35:04
Totally. And that's what I loved, even about, like, the conference thing about how, like, go see the black fellas talk. And this, again, is a conversation I'm having. And I really like that point of view is it actually just takes two more seconds of thought to be like, Oh, wait, maybe I'll hear the First Nations perspective, or maybe I'll hear someone who has a different perspective to me, not just First Nations, but more broadly, like you're already at the conference. Just go sit in a different lecture room.
Meissa 35:36
I also really loved how she brought up getting to know the Aboriginal scholars in your field, I feel like that is definitely something people don't think about. But when you're trying to learn about First Nations perspective in your field, who better to look at than the academics in your field and getting to know who they are?
Emily 35:51
And that comes back to relationships and relationality, which I know Corrinne spoke about, but it is going to be quite a common theme that we see with all our scholars, and I think is so foundational for academics and practitioners looking to work with mob or working to decolonize their practices and educations more broadly, because we don't expect you to know everything, and often some of the most important information you'll get is from relationships, and those relationships will guide you on to you know your next steps to take.
Meissa 36:27
Absolutely, for those of you listening, relationality and relationships are one of the biggest themes of this entire episode, and the next one, this whole conversation hugely relates to relationality.
Emily 36:39
Couldn't agree more, it's all about relationality. And I want to bring us back to the conversation that we had with Associate Professor Anthony McKnight again, just to hear him discuss the importance of a relation of relationships and relationality, not only working with mob, but also the importance of having a relationship with country.
Associate Professor Anthony McKnight 37:01
It's simple. It kind of comes down to three words, relationships, relationships, relationships. A relationship with people, with Aboriginal people, or even relationship with scientists, relationship your own relationship with country. We're only what 3% of the population, something like that. So it all can't go on to Aboriginal people. We need everyone working on it. So it's an invitation for non, for people who call Australia home to start having a relationship with country than just the feel good experience. We need that feel good I'm not saying to separate it, but during that feel good experiences, then what am I learning? What's country's telling me? What's country communicating to me? And then to answer your question, then you've got to work with Aboriginal people to how to do that respectfully, how to do it where appropriation of that doesn't occur, because there's a whole history here of our knowledge being appropriated. So it's part of this is not a free for all thing, but actually, like any knowledge system, there's protocols and processes. So you need to learn those protocols and processes from Aboriginal people and from country itself. If you start having those relationships with country, country will show you how nature doesn't it shows us how to share. It shows us how to care, and it shows us how to do things respectfully. You know, country show just where there's boundaries and borders that you don't cross. So it's, again, it's in that relationship with with Aboriginal people who are willing to share, but at the same time coming from that heartfelt, open heart, open mind and with respect that that you're very conscious of the history of appropriation and ownership, and there are non Aboriginal people that already stepped in that space, and they always state where they learnt their stuff from they and who and its country, and that they don't own this and but they share their story of understanding. They share their story of what they've learned from country, but always in that respectful manner. So it's reading, which is a part of the Western knowledge system that Aboriginal people have also stepped in and sharing. So reading stuff, listening to Aboriginal people, listening to each other, being open and honest and sharing, agreeing to disagree, and then work on the connect the points of connections in that disagreement.
Associate Professor Anthony McKnight 39:50
But basically just comes back to taking time on country, to learn from country. And then I Talking to people that understand how the processes and protocols and that kind of works. And you know, often our if we get too big ahead as aboriginal people, or we get carried away, it's our elders or family or community that kind of go pull us back in, and that's the same thing. You know, we gotta, non Aboriginal people have got to have those relationships to, you know, where we can have that or be pulled in. What I hope in the future is that indigenous knowledge is in schools and universities, is inequitable. Is inequity because at the moment, it's inequitable. But how does it become inequity? And like any relationships, there's ups and downs and there's shifts and moves, but it comes back to that continual communication and finding that point of connection, and again, I'll repeat it again, that point of connection from whatever culture we are, is, how do we have clean water? How do we have clean air? How do we have food for our grandkids, our great grandkids? How do fish and birds have clean fresh water. Why should just humans have the fresh clean water, or the creeks here that we wouldn't drink out of the birds and the feet have to and we won't drink out of it. So helping that water become clean again, so the birds and the fish can have clean water, and then again, it comes back to us. So if we eat that fish, we know it's going to be a healthy fish, which is healthy for us. It's not going to be full of plastic. It's not going to be but we've got a long way to go. And I love what Richard Swain said one day he's he got there, and he said, everyone in Australia goes, Oh, I love Australia. And I'm not saying Australians don't love Australia. And I agree with Kuma. This is, I just love how he says, this is, but what square millimetre of country would love us back at the moment? What square millimetre of country, whether it's a tree, a plant, a fungi, soil would love us back. And there is people that are doing, having, building that relationship with countries. Scientists are Aboriginal people, and there are scientists and Aboriginal people coming together, as I said, that that love is starting to come back. But in general, it's not everyone knows that. Deep down, everyone knows that, and sometimes that's the challenge is when you know you've stuffed up. Sometimes it's hard to admit it, and that's one of the challenges. And something that I'm still continually working on is and it's hard to get there and go, Yep, I own that you see on the footy field. Footy players put the hand up, I owned it. And then but sometimes it's it's difficult to own something that that's been hurtful.
Meissa 43:29
I love the way Anthony described being invited in to start having a relationship with country, and how caring for country is something that benefits us all. The role of country, I think, is really overlooked by a lot of people.
Emily 43:42
And I love the way Anthony described it as, or personified the relationship country as always a human relationship, because I think that's something we can all innately understand. And I love that he also talked about, you know, it goes up and down. It's not it's not always linear and straightforward.
Meissa 44:02
Caring for country is something that, in the end, it really does benefit us all, and it's something that we do need to focus on, in general, for ourselves and moving forward for the broader ideas of decolonisation.
Emily 44:14
I think Anthony even spoke about his own relationship with country and how he didn't get necessarily told how to do that, but he learned and built his own relationship with country, and that it's such a unique and personalised experience. So we've heard Anthony talk about relationships and relationship relationality in terms of country, and now I want to kind of flip that or extend on that, I should say around how you build relationships and relationality as an academic, academic or practitioner. And I'm going to invite in this conversation from Associate Professor Summer Findlay. So Summer is a Yorta Yorta woman, an academic from the University of Wollongong, Summer has extensive experience working with First Nations organisations in the tertiary education sector and in all levels of government. Summer's work has focused on indigenous health service delivery policies and overcoming health disparities for mob.
Meissa 45:20
So let's jump into that conversation with Summer.
Associate Professor Summer Findlay 45:23
I can tell you how I operate so, and it was really interesting. I partnered with a non Aboriginal person on a research project, and we went out and did semi structured interviews. So that's interviews that, you know, loosely have a guide, but similar to this, you know, we're having a having a yarn before we even started the conversation, I'd never met the Aboriginal woman sitting over me, across from me, so we had a conversation. Who's your mob? Where are you from? What do you do? All right? And then you find a connection, and you genuinely are interested in that connection. And so before we even started the interview, we'd had like a 20 minute conversation that had found a connection, that had established a relationship, that I then felt comfortable enough to start asking her some questions in and around this evaluation of the programme that she was involved in, and in the way that I then do those questions, it's very similar to this podcast. We have a general guide, but I'm not doing it like in a linear approach, we're having a yarn I want to hear more about that. That's really interesting. Can you unpack that for me? Can you talk to me more about that? And eventually it all comes out, right? It's just this thing that unfolds as you go through and you have to be flexible to be able to do that.
Associate Professor Summer Findlay 46:36
And I think that's what I would say to non Aboriginal people. If you can actually use those kind of principles to think about how you engage with Aboriginal people. Don't go in with expectations. Go in other than Here's a general thing that we're both passionate about and we're trying to understand better. Think about how to connect with someone and how to have a meaningful conversation with someone rather than trying to actually drive your own agenda. When I talk to people, if you want to, you need to be seen, and I don't mean seen in that kind of superficial way, but you've got to be present. And again, you have to turn up with stuff, tea, food, whatever. But actually be a contributing member before you even actually start thinking and engaging in having a conversation.
Meissa 47:24
Emily, I know you really loved this conversation, so let's start off with your thoughts.
Emily 47:28
Yeah, I did, and I think partly because it sounded so simple that actually just sit down and build the relationship or point of connection with people you're working with, and how big of a difference that makes? I know it's made a huge difference in my work and making sure you're not going in business first. I know Summer spoke about that in terms of a research project,
Meissa 47:56
Yeah, having a transactional kind of approach and relationship to it.
Emily 48:00
Yeah, and I think we forget that when it comes to business, we can have that we can slow it down and build that relationship, and that is just as meaningful work as you know, I don't know, sending emails, going to meetings, and I know I've spoken to this with a lot of my my Aboriginal Torres Straight Islander friends, but also non Indigenous people trying to understand the space. And I've had to prove this sometimes that, yeah, I might be going and sitting with an elder or a person from the Aboriginal community for an hour and a half, two hours, which seems like a long time in an eight hour day, but really, that is the absolutely most important work that I can do, and I can't actually achieve the work down the road if I do not dedicate this time now. So whilst in, I guess, westernised systems, or very Eurocentric systems, I think, and I'm sure any educators and so on are thinking, Oh, my God, I don't have time. But you have to really make the time and you you really have to think of it as like, Okay, well, if I can dedicate an hour meeting over here for some academic meeting, rediverting some of your time and going, no, I'm going to have an hour or two and I'm going to have a cuppa and I'm going to go sit with someone from the Aboriginal community, just get to know them. And that is as important of a business meeting as if I don't know you're having your team meeting. So I think it's about re defining what we consider our business practices and seeing that as important as anything else.
Meissa 49:47
Absolutely. And if you are going to work on a project with Aboriginal people or Aboriginal communities, that sometimes is the most valuable part that relationality at the beginning, and it can absolutely affect how your project goes down the end. If you don't have that type of relationality, or relationships with the people you're working with or the community you're working with.
Emily 50:04
And I think Summer kind of spoke to this too around not doing business first is really having a genuine interest in the person or in the community, and what's going on, like, don't just rock up to their NAIDOC events. Go to many events throughout the year and celebrate their achievements, not just your own.
Meissa 50:28
Yeah, actually, like getting involved, also, that's the point you kind of just brought up without saying it. But getting involved to be on your project, getting involved outside of what you're just working on.
Emily 50:38
Yeah, we can do more than NAIDOC Week, like we can there's more events than that in the calendar. Yeah.
Emily 50:44
In addition to Summer, we also spoke to Corrinne about the importance of relationships and relationality when working with indigenous scholars or community members, particularly around the ways non Indigenous academics may approach indigenous academics about collaborating on research or proposing to work together.
Professor Corrinne Sullivan 51:01
I think, I think the sheer load of requests and the things that ask people, ask you to do, for me is just, isn't, is it a lot, in and of itself, putting the emails, fielding the inquiries, that is a huge job. And though I don't I say that not wanting people not to come to me, but it is sometimes very just wild what people want me to do. You know, you can come and do this Acknowledgement, can't you at this conference? Well, I wasn't really going to go that conference. Oh no, you we didn't think you're going to attend. Seriously. You weren't going to cover my registration at the conference to do an Acknowledgement of someone doing an Acknowledgement. You can pay someone, but wouldn't you want to do this? Why would I want to do that? I don't have 700 other things to do. You know, I've got my own work, I've got my own teaching, I've got my own students. I have my own research, you know, I have all these other things that I'm also doing that I can't be everyone's answer, you know. And so that work can be hard. And you know, when you're doing that work of educating or talking to people, you are dealing with people's let's call it racism, because that's what it is. I was going to say micro aggressions, but no, let's call it what it is racism, which, you know, it's like death of 1000 cuts. Every week I'm I personally experience racism just about every week. I have to deal with incidences of racism, be that in classrooms, be that in hallways, be that colleague to colleague, all the time. So when you've got these moments, sometimes I just want to have a coffee and be left the fuck alone, because I need to breathe too, you know, and I've got to work out the answers to the things that I need to know. So that's, I think, that load. And I mean, there's been some terms being bandied around around, like cultural burden and all that. And I don't believe it's a cultural burden at all. You know, sharing, sharing culture, I think, is a gift and a huge privilege to be able to do that, because not all, all our mob are in a position to be able to do that.
Professor Corrinne Sullivan 53:36
So I think it, for me, it's how people bring, bring these requests to me, and how they asked me for my time, and how they value that time, and whether or not now they may not be familiar with the work term reciprocity or relationality, but those two things are actually really important to me when people want me to engage with them, and that's what I would prefer them to think about, is an engagement with me, not coming to extract from me. I mean, I'll have people wanting me to look over and give them feedback on, you know, things that they're writing, like academics and things like that. And I'm like, Well, okay, but for that level of input, I should be a co author Oh, why? I don't think I would do that. Well, then don't ask me. And you know, if you're wanting you know me to you know you're decolonizing your subject and you want me to have a look, don't start with, I'm going to, I'm going to, can we meet? No, no. Tell me where you started, what you've got, what you've got going, what you're thinking about. Give me some of your ideas. Like, don't just come expecting me to do all that work, you know. Come like, come with some preparation, come with some thoughts. You know, where you're thinking. About putting it in and out, and we can give me something to work with, right? Otherwise, I could just go and do it myself, right? And the same thing, like when people ask sometimes for me to do guest lectures, and that for them, and I don't often do them, but I will. I have, I have, but I do expect a reciprocity there. I'm like, Yeah, sure, okay, but which, which subject, like, you can you, I'd like you to do a guest lecture for me, or do this set of things for me. Oh, I couldn't do that. I couldn't teach in that. Well, why do that? What? Like, that's, that's free labour, you know? So it's those sorts of things. I think there's a there's a way in which to do it, and it needs to be respectful and it needs to be sensitive of people's time. Because there's another bit here where I say people ask, is when they actually don't ask. I know that sounds very hypocritical, right? But the people who go and they'll go and do everything and then let you know at the end. And you're like, Great, now I've got this huge job, you know, coming in and trying to clean. I'm thinking, Who have you talked to? You've talked to no one, and you're at the very end.
Professor Corrinne Sullivan 56:14
So, you know, it's about timing and respect and sensitivity and relationality and knowing, building those relationships and not deciding one day you want to do it like it's my emergency. You know, it's being respectful of my time and my energy. Absolutely, absolutely, I think that's, I think that's where, where some of the tension lies, is that when people are doing it for their very first time. And it's like, you, I think you need to kind of think about what I ask someone to read something you expect back the next day. Of anyone, no, do that like, that's that's just using someone that's extractive. But you know, when people have time and they're like, I'm thinking about doing stuff for next session, next semester, you know, now it's probably not such a bad time to say, I'm thinking about it. Do you think we could find some time? You know, yes or no,
Professor Corrinne Sullivan 57:11
You know, I mean, like giving that meaningful lead time, or people are thinking about stuff next year. Now's a good time to actually start having those conversations and it's not just about being respectful of my time, like just coming back to the whole idea of decolonization, it's being respectful to the work, if it, if it's if you're going to do it, and you want to do it meaningfully, and you want to try and badge decolonization on it, well, you're going to need to put in some time, you know? And that's that that is built around that whole notion of respect, yeah.
Emily 57:44
So I'm really interested to get your thoughts me. So I know you really liked this conversation and got a lot out of it. So yeah, we'd love to hear what you thought about it all.
Meissa 57:55
I really did. Honestly, I think Corrinne's reflections here are an experience a lot of mob in academia can relate to, even mob outside of academia getting asked about things relating to culture or relating to community. It's an experience a lot of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people can relate to we are so often expected to take on extra labour, without regard to our time or capacity, under the guise of support or allyship, like they're doing us a favour by giving us extra work.
Emily 58:21
Yeah, I really like this, because I think any Aboriginal person in this, in any space, to be honest, will understand this, of this assumption that you're Aboriginal, that means you want to do this right, like these are your people, and you should do that. And I think that's really funny, because it's like, yeah, well, of course, I want to hear the Acknowledgement of Country, but I'd also like to hear you white fellas, acknowledge the country you're on, because I acknowledge it quite a lot more than just in this meeting as a tokenistic symbol. So, yeah, I really enjoyed that. And I think it's funny when people kind of, again, assume that because you're Aboriginal, you can speak on everything to do with being Aboriginal, or that you want to do, like acknowledgement of countries because you're Aboriginal. And it's like, yeah, but if I said to you as a non Indigenous person, like, oh, you can speak to colonisation, right? Like your people did colonisation, like, why don't you tell me about it? They'd be like, That's weird, yeah, the double standard. So I think it's again, about drawing back to Karlie's conversation around critical reflection and looking at what we consider our normal of like just simply flipping the question. If I asked you something about all white people across, you know, the globe, you would feel weird about answering that as well.
Meissa 59:58
I'm actually really glad you brought that up because I feel like that's an experience a lot of Aboriginal people have, in general, just being treated differently for being an Aboriginal person, as if there's different rules or ways to communicate with us. And it's like, obviously there are customs and ways to be respectful, but in the context we're talking about here, it's like there's no need to other Aboriginal people, as if you have to treat us differently and not like a regular academic or not like someone else that you're working with, like we're not some other species of people? Yeah, if you wouldn't like us to communicate with you that way, or you don't like these type of questions, if I asked you, why do you think that's appropriate for me?
Emily 1:00:33
Yeah, I could not agree more with that. And I think Corrinne also spoke so well about relationality and reciprocity, that's a new word. We're introducing all the R words, yeah, totally. And I think that reciprocity, yeah, like that mutual, mutually beneficial arrangement is just again, so important.
Meissa 1:01:00
100% like while many non Indigenous scholars may approach these conversations with the best intentions, in practice, it's not always respectful,.
Emily 1:01:09
Absolutely, I think we have just heard like a wealth of knowledge in this episode. I think you know, Corrinne, Anthony, Summer and Karlie spoke so beautifully about starting with ourselves and really having, even just having that moment to ourselves to critically reflect, and the invitation from Anthony to really join in on this conversation and be part of this journey. You know, I, as we reach the end of the first episode, I'm really excited to to share this, but also to hear what's coming next. And I really want people to go listen to episode two to continue this yarn on decolonizing education and social work. I am an Aboriginal person, and I have learned so much, and it's given me so much to reflect on. So I really hope that the audience feels that as well.
Meissa 1:02:10
Absolutely like the amount of knowledge that our scholars have given us just in these short interviews we had with them. And I also just want to say thank you again for them for taking the time to talk to us and really like giving us this knowledge and having this conversation with us and taking time out of their day. And yes, please, please check out the next episode. This is a two part series, and the next episode really leads on from the conversations that we've had in this episode, and it is a flow on conversation.
Emily 1:02:41
Yeah, and thanks to everyone you know listening as well and actually tuning in first step around having these conversations, they can be confronting, and so I'm really glad that we have I'm really glad that people have tuned In and clearly chosen this episode to tune into.
Meissa 1:03:03
And that concludes our first episode. Please go check out the next one that goes on from this one, and I'll see you there too. See you then.
Dr Ben Joseph 1:03:17
Thank you for listening to social work teach and this episode on decolonizing education and social work we hope this episode has provided valuable insights and inspired you to think critically about our education systems and practices. Remember, decolonization is an ongoing process that requires commitment, reflection and action from all stakeholders in the educational and social work systems, we encourage people to critically reflect on their teaching education and practice and listen and learn from First Nations voices as we work together to build a better future.
Dr Ben Joseph 1:03:54
We would also like to thank our Aboriginal scholars, Anthony McKnight, Summer, Finlay, Corrinne Sullivan and Karlie Stewart for being part of this conversation and sharing their knowledge, their perspective and lived experiences in this field are invaluable, and we are very appreciative they've been able to come in and have this yarn with us today. Finally, if these conversations have brought anything up for you, we encourage you to reach out to support networks and services, and you can find some resources in the episode description .
Dr Ben Joseph 1:04:27
You've been listening to the Social Work Teach podcast, a Social Work Media production. The Social Work Media team is made up of Professor Mim Fox, Dr Ben Joseph, Lis Murphy and Justin Stech. Special thanks goes to Maddie Stratton. To get in contact with us at Social Work Media, please head to our website at www.socialwork.media or connect with us via LinkedIn. Thanks for listening.