Decolonising Education and Social Work - Part 2
Podcast Episode Show Notes
How to cite/reference this podcast episode: Mason, T. (Host & Producer), Jeffrey, E. (Host & Producer), Findlay, S. M. (Guest), Stewart, K. (Guest), Sullivan, C. (Guest), McKnight, A. (Guest), Joseph, B. L. (Producer), Fox, M. (Producer), Sharma, A. (Producer), Murphy, L. (Producer) & Stech, J. (Producer). (2026, April 1). Decolonising Education and Social Work - Part 2 (Season No. 1, Episode No. 4)[Audio podcast episode]. In Social Work Teach. Social Work Media. https://socialwork.media/socialworkteach/episode4
Episode Title: Decolonising Education and Social Work - Part 2
Release Date: 1 April 2026
Duration: 53 minutes
Music: ‘Mopeds’ by Beat Mekanik (Licence: CC 4.0 International)
Produced by: Thomeissa ‘Meissa’ Mason, Emily Jeffrey, Dr Ben Joseph (Western Sydney University), Professor Mim Fox (University of Wollongong), Dr Alankaar Sharma (University of Wollongong), Lis Murphy, and Justin Stech
Episode Host(s): Thomeissa ‘Meissa’ Mason & Emily Jeffrey
Episode Guest(s): Associate Professor Summer May Findlay (University of Wollongong); Karlie Stewart; Professor Corrinne Sullivan (Western Sydney University); and Associate Professor Anthony McKnight (University of Wollongong)
Episode Overview: This episode discusses decolonising education and social work, featuring insights from various Aboriginal scholars. Associate Professor Summer Finlay emphasises the importance of consulting multiple Aboriginal perspectives and the need for non-Aboriginal academics to advocate for change. Karlie Stewart highlights the necessity of being accountable to community and integrating diverse voices in social work practice. Professor Corrinne Sullivan critiques the term "decolonisation," advocating for honesty and structural changes. Associate Professor Anthony McKnight stresses the significance of integrating Indigenous and Western knowledge systems. The conversation underscores the ongoing journey of decolonisation, the need for critical reflection, and the role of non-Indigenous individuals in supporting Indigenous voices and perspectives.
About the Guest(s)
Name: Associate Professor Anthony McKnight
Position: Director Early Start: Culture and Community
Institution/Organisation: University of Wollongong
Area of Expertise: Anthony McKnight is Awabakal, Gamaroi and continues to be ‘grown up’ by his Yuin Cultural lines on the South Coast of NSW. Anthony is a Cultural man, father, husband, grandfather, uncle, son, grandson, brother, cousin, nephew and friend. For the past 30 years Anthony has continuously been involved in Aboriginal Education through a range of roles and educational institutions. Anthony has recently co-authored Research for Educators (Cengage 2023) inviting researchers to embedded Aboriginal research protocols and methodology in educational research.
Name: Karlie Stewart
Position: Community & Culture Lead
Institution/Organisation: Weave Youth & Community Services
Area of Expertise: Yuin woman living on Bidjigal land, dog mum and pizza enthusiast. Social worker with 10+ yrs of experience across the community and academic/university sector. My work is grounded in anti-racist, anti-oppressive and trauma-informed theory, practice and frameworks; this guides my approach to healing-centred practice in Aboriginal communities. As an Aboriginal woman, I am committed to genuine, sustainable and meaningful change in Community for Mob. I am a self-determined and autonomous woman, guided by my accountability to my family, my community, and Aboriginal people across the Australian continent. Currently employed as the Community & Culture Lead at Weave Youth & Community Services working across our four sites on Gadigal and Bidjigal lands (Sydney City and South East Sydney). Currently a Director on the Board of Just Reinvest NSW and Co-Chair of the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Healing Foundation's Youth Reference Group. Previously a board member of Waminda (South Coast Women’s Health & Welfare Aboriginal Corporation) and NSW Council of Social Services. Part time artist (@katungalart - instagram) when it feels good to create.
Name: Professor Corrinne Sullivan
Position: Director of Indigenous Research
Institution/Organisation: Western Sydney University
Area of Expertise: Indigenous education, particularly in curriculum and pedagogy development, has led to significant contributions to government policy, institutional practice, and community-based services and resources.
Name: Associate Professor Summer May Findlay
Position: Associate Professor, Aboriginal Health
Institution/Organisation: University of Wollongong
Area of Expertise: Dr Summer May Finlay (CSCA, TAE, GC-EDHE, BSocSC, MPHA, and PhD) is a Yorta Yorta woman and Associate Professor at the University of Wollongong. She has over 20 years of experience working in and with Indigenous organisations, tertiary sector, local, state and federal governments. Over the last 10 years, Finlay has established an extensive and unique research program in Indigenous health. Her program, with a focus on Indigenous health service delivery, policy and overcoming health disparities, is driving change. It encompasses young Aboriginal people, mixed methods health services research in Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander primary care, and evaluations and women’s health, offering a fresh perspective on these critical areas.Implications for Social Work Educators
Implications for Social Work Educators
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Resources and Further Reading
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Podcast Episode Transcript
Dr Ben Joseph 00:13
You're listening to Social Work Teach. Social Work Teach dives into the pedagogy and practice that social work educators use to teach skills, knowledge and values, both in the classroom and in the field. This podcast aims to explore what, how and why we teach what we teach. Throughout these episodes, you'll hear from experienced educators, you'll hear from curious educators, and you'll hear from students in the midst of their studies. Once you listen to the episode, make sure you have a look at the episode show notes, where we identify a number of different resources to help you do your own deep dive into the topic and give you a way to start enacting the pedagogy that you've been hearing about social work teach is a social work media production. We acknowledge the traditional owners of the unceded lands these recordings have been made on and pay respects to elders past and present, and acknowledge ongoing First Nations sovereignty.
Emily 01:29
Yama, and welcome back to part two of our series about decolonizing education and social work. My name is Emily, and I'm really excited to be joined by my co host, Meissa to be kicking off the second part of our series today.
Meissa 01:45
Yama, you mob. My name is Meissa. If you haven't already, please go back and listen to episode one. It really sets the groundwork and the understanding that you'll need for this episode. In this second part, we're looking at decolonising systems and classrooms and the differing perspectives about what decolonising means.
Emily 02:03
So yeah, to start our conversation, I'm really excited to be bringing back in one of our scholars, and that is Associate Professor and Yorta Yorta woman Summer Findlay. Summer has extensive experience working in a wide variety of organisations and systems with the aim of improving outcomes for First Nations' peoples and communities. So I really love this conversation. I think Summer is invaluable and provides so much great insight on this topic.
Meissa 02:34
I agree. I think this is the perfect place to start off episode two. As one of the challenges we looked at when discussing decolonizing systems, is how we include and engage First Nations peoples and their voices and experiences. Summer highlights some really important things people need to consider when trying to engage with mob and emphasises the importance of evaluating your intentions, interactions and the impact you are making as an academic. So let's have a listen to what Summer had to say.
Associate Professor Summer Findlay 03:02
So for me, as an Aboriginal woman, I am not the fountain of all knowledge on Aboriginal people, and I don't want to be pre treated as such. I have discipline expertise, and I have personal experiences on lived experience. So I'd really like people to understand that consulting one Aboriginal person does not mean you're consulting all of us, and I'm not saying you have to consult every black fellow? Impossible. Yeah, totally. But what I'm saying is that you need to make sure that when you're working in the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander space is that you're seeking multiple viewpoints and engaging multiple people where relevant, to ensure that the research or the teaching is reflective of the community more broadly. The other thing that I also want to say is that Aboriginality is not a qualification in and of itself. I can't speak to men's health. I can't speak to engineering in an Aboriginal context. I can't speak on a whole lot of things just because I happen to be Aboriginal. So going and speaking to your neighbour who happens to be Aboriginal and asking them for specific content expertise is not appropriate. Yeah? So for me, when you're so it's not just about speaking to an Aboriginal person, it's about speaking to the right yeah, Aboriginal people, because otherwise you're, all you're doing is ticking a box and making your own life more comfortable. When I think about what I want non Aboriginal people to do when they're in our space as well, is, are they willing to actually take some risks on our behalf, or are they interested in making their own life comfortable? Yeah, and if they're looking to make their own life comfortable by being taking the path of least resistance. What they're doing is actually maintaining the status quo, which actually has no benefit and often harms Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people. So I would ask people to where relevant and within their skill sets, to actually advocate for change and not speak on our behalf, but certainly open a dialogue, and then encourage a conversation with Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people. When you want to consult on or engage in Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander staff, you actually need to make sure that you create a space where Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander views and perspectives are given the priority that they should be given when one Aboriginal person is in a room of 5, 10 or more, non Aboriginal people, their voice is often not heard or not considered as well as it should be. And I think that that's the other thing, is that you actually have to make sure that you're creating a space and you're prioritising indigenous voices on indigenous issues. I know it sounds really simple, but that's not what western systems do. They talk to experts, experts, not necessarily in our space, even if they, for example, have worked in the Northern Territory once. They don't necessarily mean they're an expert in our space. And to be quite frank, I don't consider me myself an expert in my space, and this is what I do. Yeah, so there's so many things that I think about, and I've drawn those learnings from the community controlled sector, because it's community controlled, which means they go out, they work to the benefit of community, and to do that, they have to understand what the community wants.
Emily 06:18
I really liked this conversation, and something that I think that was particularly important, but also resonated with me, was this idea of, you can't just consult one Aboriginal person and call it consulting. I think it's really resonated with me, because we've all been there. You kind of feel this, like in between, like, I know I've been in systems before, where you kind of have this bureaucratic, big system, big, scary kind of system, at times, being like, Hey, this is your job, even though it's not with this. This is our expectation of you, and it's usually coming from senior management or upper management to where you are, but then also holding this cultural understanding and and knowing that we are not a homogenous group, and therefore I cannot speak to every Aboriginal person and or any every Aboriginal community. And so I think, yeah, I really resonated and could remember all those times that I felt stuck in the middle of those two things. And I really that's something I really want organisations and systems and people in upper management to consider is that push and pull that we all feel and what that is like. Well, one, what is the impact of that? Not great, obviously, but also, what is the impact on that Aboriginal person that you're asking to do those things?
Meissa 07:57
I agree. I also really loved how Summer brought up that it is important for non Indigenous academics who are looking to work with mob to ensure that their work actually benefits the community that they're working with and prioritises community needs far too often, non Indigenous academics approach indigenous academics or even go into communities to extract information for their projects, without considering whether the community is benefiting, benefiting from this work, or if it's even reciprocal, and usually, well, most of the time, these projects are actually reliant on the information that mob provide. And they wouldn't be able to do this project without mob and information that they're giving. Yet, the community or even Aboriginal academics involved, they're not actually benefiting from these interactions.
Emily 08:40
Yeah, absolutely. So true is that I think this is the whole thing around it's a very colonial way of thought.
Meissa 08:48
Yeah, very transactional.
Emily 08:50
Yeah, and that you can, and you can stand on the shoulders of Aboriginal people to bolster and uphold, for example, your research or what you're looking at, but then fail to go through due process of understanding. You know, is this what the community wants? Or how is the information going to be shared? Or how is even the knowledge going to be protected? I think absolutely, that's such an important point. And I think, yeah, I know someone talked about this idea of being that it should be with a community first mentality. You shouldn't be deciding what your research priorities are or what your teaching priorities are about Aboriginal people that should be led and decided by the people that you're trying to research.
Meissa 09:40
Absolutely because then what are you doing the research for if it's not actually for the community you're writing about, and it doesn't benefit them in the way that they decided, or if they're saying this isn't going to help, what is the purpose of that project? Why are you still continuing with it?
Emily 09:55
Oh, absolutely. And I think that links really perfectly to our next segment, actually around Karlie, and I'll introduce Karlie in a minute, but I know she speaks to this idea around being accountable to community. Yeah, she is accountable, first and foremost, to community, and also speaks so beautifully I think about social work, and to kind of extend on the idea you were talking about before around, what Summer said is one of the huge issues with social work is that white fellas or non Indigenous people have come in and decided what is best for Aboriginal and or Torres Strait Islander people, and now we see an over representation of First Nations kids in out of home care. And so I think this is where we're saying it's really important to start pushing against that idea.
Meissa 10:52
Before you move on I want to draw attention to a sentence you just said that I think really encapsulates the whole conversation we've just been happening, just been having and bringing Karlie's idea of being community first. I actually think that anyone that has any intention of working with Aboriginal communities or has a project where the subject matter is Aboriginal communities should come from that community first lens that should be your first priority. Because if you're interacting in some way, or you're trying to create a project or a study on Aboriginal people or an Aboriginal community, then that should be a priority to be community first and ensure that community needs are being met.
Emily 11:27
100% and I think a lot of people go into being like, oh, you know, if I do research on Aboriginal people, I get all this funding. And, you know, it can seem like this buzzword, but reminding people that we are we are humans behind that as well, and remembering that sometimes doing the work with communities, whether that's First Nations communities or other diverse communities, can often be longer and harder work, and as it should be, because if you're going to be benefiting and profiting off these communities, then You should 100% make sure you're doing the work right. So I guess without further ado, let's let's bring in Karlie's conversation. So Karlie is a Yuin woman, social worker and lecturer, and speaks, as we said, speaks about this and how we can bring these learnings into the classroom. So let's continue this conversation and hear what Karlie has to say about it.
Karlie Stewart 12:22
And so I approach all of my classes exactly the same. I come in, you know, the first first class of each semester, and I say to my students, "I don't care about this institution. Just to be very clear, I'm not here as a representative of UOW I'm here as a representative of my community, and I'm accountable to my community first and foremost." and that's what it means to me to be black and to be in the system, is, why am I doing this? And who do I care about? And if I'm always anchored in that, then I believe that I'm always having, bringing about the best intention as intentions that I can into my work. And it also means I'm I'm acknowledging my position, and then I put it back onto my students, what's yours? Yeah, what's your position? Why are you here? What do you care about? Why are you doing this? And I ask them that every single lesson, multiple times a lesson, "who are you? Why do you care? Why are you doing this?" And for me, that's about them acknowledging position. Because social work, you can have all the skills I teach them all the time. I'm not going to tell you about open ended questions. I don't care, because how you have a conversation with anyone is how you should be having a conversation with everyone. How do you talk to your friends? That's how you should approach your practice, like you care, like you're passionate, like you want to bring justice, like you want to share love. That's how you should be approaching your practice. Obviously, boundaried, you know, because it has to be because of the nature of the work. But what I care more about with my students in the classroom is getting them to think, what does it mean to be critical in our approach? What does it mean to be politicised? Because social work is political. It's roots of political. The way that we operate is political 100% and so there's no skills that I can teach you, except for Shut up and learn when to listen, step to the side, figure out how to hold your power, because we do have power as social workers. It's not about sitting here and saying, Oh, I'm so scared of this power. I don't want this power. Hold it and know when to use it, because you do have power, you can stand up to these systems. And so a lot of the work that I do in the classroom is actually around getting them to think about who they are. So taking a position, are you happy with who you are? Are you happy with how you approach your work? And if you're not, you're going to have a miserable career. So let's figure out how we do some work around who you are. So it's big conversations in my classroom about self, about use of self in social work, about how you go about accessing information in community. Don't just run to DcJ and tell me what child protection best practices? Yeah, I don't want to hear what DcJ say about best practice in child protection. It's wrong, because if it was right, if it was the right way to go about it, if it was best practice, we wouldn't have Aboriginal children being taken into care at the rates that they are, yeah, and being in out of home care at the rates that they are, and most of them never going home. We talk about restoration. It doesn't happen that's very, very rare that black kids get to go home to their families, to their parents, to their mums and dads. And so don't go and tell me what best practice is in the eyes of DcJ. Go down into Nowra and find me a case worker who works in that community, and ask them what they think about best practice. Then you come back and tell me, here's what best practice is, and you should be striving to practice in alignment with that. So kind of teaching them to get really critical about what's the information that you're accessing. Where does it come from? Who contributed to that? Yeah, just really critical thought about who they are and how they operate in regards to their social work practice and how they grow their own practice. We have very real conversations about, you know, assessments. What are assessments? What's an essay? Do you know what I mean? Like, for example, when I set assessments for my students, this is a way that I go about incorporating more Aboriginal voices into my content is, I'll say, "Cool. Go and use peer reviewed articles and peer reviewed resources, whatever it might be. But also, go and find me a TEDx talk. Yeah, go and find me a podcast. Go and find me an opinion piece on the indigenous X blog website." Actually find content written by black fellas that aren't privileged enough to be in the world of academia, you know, because they're the voices not saying that black fellas in academia don't their voices don't matter, because I absolutely do, and there's a place for that, but go on go and find my Nan, go and find my auntie, go and find my mum, you know, go and hear what they've got to say, because these are women in our communities who do the bulk of the care work in our communities, right? Black women and and I want to know what they've got to say about child protection, yeah. And it also sets a standard for me around what I expect of my students when they go into practice. I expect you to be creative. I expect you to look outside of the box for the answers. Because if you're just going to DcJ and you're just toeing their line and doing everything they say, you're not going to have good outcomes. We know that. Yeah, we know that. So what else do you have to do? You have to get creative. You have to be perseverant. You have to look outside the box. Who is who in the zoo, who's who in community, who are those key people that you can go to and you can say, I'm having this trouble with X, Y and Z. Can you please help me like we don't have to be bound by these colonial constructs or these colonial ways of doing social work. We can do it however we want, within the legislative and statutory confines. I'll just say that on the record, but we should all be creative. So, and I always say this about the way that I teach, is how I expect my students to approach their practice. It's relational. We're creative. We're having conversations. It takes as long as it takes. They want to know, why haven't you gotten these assessment marks to us back yet? And I'm like, has I got family the same way that if you had something go on, you get to put in an AC request and you get an extension on your assessment? Well, sometimes I need a little bit more time to mark, because if I'm going to mark 15 assessments in one go, I'm sorry, but you're probably not going to get a good mark, and I'm probably not going to be very impartial, and you're probably not going to get very good feedback, because I need a break too. I've got stuff going on too, you know. So trying to approach my teaching and role model. Here's how I expect you to be with community. Here's the values that I expect you to take into your practice when you're working with black fellows or anybody, yeah, even white fellas like this is, you know, this is what it should look like. These are the values, these are the principles, these are the ways that you should approach it. Yeah, that's really important to me, and that is a cornerstone of decolonization. It's like actually role modelling. How do we do things differently? Then, if you're saying these systems aren't working well, then what else does it need to look like? So I try and, you know, take an approach of role modelling. Here's what it could look like, if you're brave enough, here's what it could look like.
Meissa 19:19
That was an incredible conversation by Karlie, and I know that you're based in a social work space, so I'm keen to hear what you thought about that Emily.
Emily 19:26
Yeah, I absolutely loved this conversation, and I think it's really good to add on from episode one, particularly around critical reflection. And that point to what Karlie said is really considering where we get our information from, and encouraging people and students to consider how that information perspective forms our practice framework. And I think this applies not to just social work, but any field of expertise, whether that's in education, or whether you own a business, all of these things can apply. And I really loved that. Karlie pointed out the child protection system, this is something we learn about quite heavily, I think, in at university and but we're not really always taught to get out information from anywhere else except things like, what does the legislation say and what does policy say, and what are our reporting requirements, and they are so important obviously they're to protect us and others, but what we know, and what Karlie, I think, really pointed out, is that it's not working. So why are we only getting out information from those sources? Because clearly that's not working, and we know that they are not being informed by Aboriginal ways of knowing, being and doing. So I really loved the idea of getting creative with where you can get information. And to take that one step further is role modelling to the people around you, is how we should practice, and that is not seeking one perspective. And again, we'll call it back to even Summer's conversation around that applies to not only getting one perspective from an Aboriginal person, diversifying your perspectives even within the First Nations community.
Meissa 20:35
Yeah I really love how Summer's and Karlie's conversations really linked together. They kind of talked about them in different ways, but both spoke about diversifying the voices we hear from and where we're hearing them from. Like Karlie said, you know, like, use your academic papers, but also listen to indigenous podcasts or TED Talks and listen to mob on the ground. Not all mob have the privilege of being published, but they have valuable knowledge all the same. I think this reflection is great in helping students learn how to consult and engage with First Nations, peoples and communities before they go out and practice in the real world.
Emily 22:10
Totally Absolutely. And I think just to extend on that as well, is I really liked how Karlie also pointed out that one social workers, political and social work. As social workers, we have power, and I want to extend that to not just social workers, but if you were an educator, if you were a teacher, if you are anyone that has the upper hand in any situation, there is a power imbalance, and a lot of people get uncomfortable with that. And I know Carly speaks about sharing that. And I think when you share that with various voices through various ways, you are kind of sharing that power, because then you're not becoming, you know, you're not teaching your students to be kind of narrow minded in the way that they consider say things like child protection. So yeah, I just wanted to call that out, because I think that's really important, is to always remember that we are always political, and we there is always a power imbalance. It's sometimes about recognising that. And I know a lot of people will say, Oh, but I'm not political. Well, that is innately a political choice, and I think that is also not being a great ally, because Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people are politicised from the moment they're born, and so I think we've just got to acknowledge that. And you know, you're not like own the fact that there is a power dynamic and real life and work to share that a little bit more.
Meissa 23:42
I do really love how Karlie mentioned sharing power, especially if you don't want to use your power. First of all, I do think everyone should use their power in a good way. You have it. Use your privilege. Use your power. But I do love how she spoke about sharing power. I think a lot of people assume that power is always top down, like you're saying comes from, like the lecturer having the power and students don't, or thinking University has the power and they don't, as the lecturer, power is not always just top down like that. We all have power to change things, and in academia specifically, we do have the power to make these small changes,
Emily 24:15
And particularly non Indigenous academics, like if you break a rule or you push back a little bit? Yeah, you might get a little like, slap on the wrist, or like, you know, or a strongly worded email about, don't say that. But if you know, a lot of First Nations, academics and people do not have that ability to push back in the same way, without being labelled the angry black person
Emily 24:41
Totally, so that's where you should learn to, I don't know, find what you value and stand on it and stand on it with a backbone. And I think that's what being a good ally is, is knowing that I'm going to show up for my Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peers, academics can Community, whoever it is, regardless of maybe the pushback I'm going to get, and I am, I am able to have that pushback because I'm a white person, so I'm able to withstand it more.
Meissa 25:13
And in this broader conversation about decolonizing and decolonizing education, power has a huge place in that redistribution of power sharing, power shifting, power it is a huge place in that. So we're now, we're having these conversations about decolonizing systems, compared to decolonizing self in our last episode, power has a huge role in that.
Emily 25:35
Again, I think this so perfectly segues into our conversation with Associate Professor Anthony McKnight. So Anthony was on our last episode, but if you have forgotten, he is in an Awabakal, Gamaroi and Yuin cultural man, academic at the University of Wollongong, and really focuses on championing Aboriginal ways of knowing and learning by centreing country at the forefront. So in this next part of the conversation, and in discussion with Anthony, we talk about recentering country, which I think is an important conversation when we're talking about redistributing power. But also he talks about linking together indigenous and non indigenous knowledge systems, which, again, I think is so important for moving together, like moving forward together in this process. So let's have a little listen to what Anthony had to say.
Associate Professor Anthony McKnight 26:34
So as I stated before, Country is our knowledge system. Country is our teacher, and Country is the pedagogy as well. So it's introducing people to seeing that that Country is teacher, and placing country centre is often we place the human as the most important element, that everything is about, and you see it in the politics, and you see everything, it's about helping people, this, people, that people. Everything's about people. And things like the environment are kind of an after thought, after thought. Secondary issues. And yeah, so everyone has a relationship with Country whether it's known or unknown, and why placing Country centre, it's actually making that relationship a lot more known. And in that kind of thing of placing Country centre and not looking at the separation is then science has a massive role in that relationship. So we're not throwing science out of that. Yeah, the discussion of, whatever it is, the bird we've we have to work in partnership with science and that knowledge system, because our knowledge system was never about regeneration, it was about care and maintaining. And so you've got another knowledge system Western that has that capacity and the knowledge to help with regeneration. And our knowledge system, as well, learning from Country itself and the knowledge that has been passed down as well coming together. And there's plenty of examples of where that's starting to happen. It's not mainstream yet, but there is, there is a growing body of that. There's also a resistance to that, and that could be the cultural change, or that could be seen as a power dynamic, and that's something we've got to look at, is that Western knowledge in this country has been the dominant knowledge, or asking for our two knowledges to come alongside each other and work in relationship and connection to take care of an entity that provides everything for us. Yeah, so we need science, and we need Aboriginal knowledges to work side by side, and to me, that's part of the decolonizing or the unlearning to relearn. Yeah, definitely that one knowledge system can dominate another. And as you know, in any relationship, if there's someone who dominates, it's not a healthy No. If you put it into the human world to understand it, if there's a relationship where there's a real dominance, then that's not a healthy relationship. And that's saying with knowledge relationships. The overall relationship between Aboriginal and non Aboriginal people is, you, we've got to have those heavy and hard conversations around power and this and that whole thing around it's gonna be it's. Comfortable, yeah, absolutely for everyone involved, because it's hard to look itself. It's hard to admit, oh, actually, I throw my long clippings over the fence where there is a creek is, but that's the simple thing that we want people to look at, oh, instead of throwing the long creeping level and that's gonna damage the creek or whatever, what's what's a more appropriate way? And there are, science has showed us there's more appropriate ways. And if we also took the time to observe country, it would also show us more appropriate ways.
Emily 30:38
First thing, first, I want to say that I really love the way Anthony talks. I think he has such a calming presence. So that was really lovely. But I also really loved that how the Anthony really spoke about merging both Indigenous and non Indigenous ideas, theories, ways of knowing, being and doing together, and how they can kind of complement each other. But I do know that you really resonate with this conversation, so I'd love to get your thoughts on that as well, and just the conversation more generally.
Meissa 31:14
Before I get into it. I did also want to say I love the way Anthony talks. That's such a calm cadence, and I love talking to him around the uni. But what I also wanted to bring attention to was that he brought up our constant theme of relationality. For those of you who haven't seen the first episode, our huge theme throughout the first episode was relationality, and here, Anthony talks about these two knowledge systems as a relationship, and we need to make sure that we're supporting a healthy relationship between Western and indigenous knowledge systems as we move towards the future, many academics have already been doing this work for decades, you know, including scholars that we spoke about today. However, it has been a long and difficult journey as Indigenous knowledge systems are still not acknowledged and validated in academia the way western knowledge systems are. But this is where, as Emily mentioned before, non Indigenous academics need to use their critical reflection within their teachings and their classroom to include and amplify Indigenous academics and Indigenous Knowledges. Non Indigenous academics really have an opportunity to help bridge the gap and use their power and privilege to work towards redistributing power in academia, because, as Anthony affirms, a redistribution of power is essential to decolonial work.
Emily 32:26
I just think you said that so beautifully. And, you know, particularly Karlie's conversation and then this conversation and thinking about, you know, having that critical mind over where we are getting our information. I think it's a really interesting thought experiment, and I would put this to the audience, or people in social work or anyone that uses different theories and pedagogies, which I know is multidisciplinary so everyone, but how Indigenous ways of knowing, being and doing can come into that but also acknowledging that many of those theories are written and constructed and distributed by non Indigenous people. So where can we use things like, you know, if we're thinking about social work, like critical race theory, or where can we use solution focused therapy or or those kind of things. Where can we use that and some of the teachings from that, but also merge that with Aboriginal ways of knowing, being and doing? I think Karlie spoke to it, maybe in the first episode, if I'm remembering correctly, but this idea that, you know, social work is creative, and I think that, again, extends to all of these, any kind of discipline that people are in, is that we need to get thinking outside the box, because the box right now is a colonial way of doing things, so we literally have to get outside of that box to start this process of decolonizing. And I think, again, as you said, like non Indigenous academics particularly have the opportunity to bridge that gap. Because I think the reality is, is that people are going to listen to non Indigenous academics when they say, Hey, have you heard about like this Indigenous academic who is doing work in this space, who is looking at a different framework, whether that's, you know, Dr Bindi Bennett or Dr Jessica Russ-Smith, like they're doing amazing work in social work theory and using social work theory, but also having Aboriginal ways and knowing, being and doing incorporated into that.
Meissa 34:46
I absolutely agree. I think that's why it's so important. We started our first episode off discussing decolonizing self, because once you start thinking out of the box in that way, once you start questioning things that are taught to you as a given, once you start you critically reflecting on systems and information, you can then start using your power and privilege to make these changes in your area of academia. And I also want to, once again, as we did in the first episode, really call attention to the fact that anyone can or anyone in any part of academia. It doesn't have to be social work. It doesn't have to be education. Can take these perspectives on in their area, even outside academia, anyone can start kind of making these changes.
Emily 35:30
Yeah, and it just takes, I think, a point that you said before, too is around that First Nations people have been doing this for such a long time, and so many people have written about this, amazing academic scholars, whether that's the people on this podcast, on different podcasts overseas, even, indeed, you know, First Nation scholars from Canada, New Zealand and so on, have really invaluable perspectives. And one of the things I get a lot is I just don't know where to find the information. And I'm like, why are you not just Googling it? And I know Corinne spoke about that in episode one of you know, you're a researcher, you're in these academic institutions. Just go, like, that little bit further, like, I know that there are big you know, there are time constraints. Of course, I am empathetic to that. But also, if this is something you truly want to see, this decolonizing work, that it's exactly that it's work, and it is going to take redistributing even your time management to think about, okay, well, instead of teaching the subject the same way I have, let's see if we can change up some of the sources around that. And I think once you get that ball rolling is you'll start to open yourself up to a world of amazing First Nations academics. Because guess what, when you read one academic paper, they usually reference other people. So you can literally just go to that and, you know, find someone else. So yeah, that would be my little piece of advice.
Meissa 37:12
But to be blunt for for a hot second, it does take a little bit of initiative, and it takes that bit of hard work. Sometimes it is hard work, like you're saying no one's saying it's not. But if you are committed and dedicated to making the world of academia a better place for everyone and progression outside of colonialism, this is the type of work that it takes.
Emily 37:33
Yeah, I agree. And I also think that it is a completely it's very much white privilege and whiteness of play, I think in this is that and whether it's conscious or subconscious, is up to the listener to apply some critical reflection. But I think it's really interesting that people don't think these resources exist because it's probably in part, because of a narrative or a false and absolutely false perspective that Aboriginal people are not in these spaces, Aboriginal and Torres, Strait Islander people are in all different kinds of spaces. And you should expect that, you should expect that we have amazing First Nations people in academia producing amazing papers and theories and to say that I just don't know where to find, it to me is your your privilege and your racial bias.
Meissa 38:30
Someone saying I don't know where to find it shows me they never looked because you could just look up Aboriginal academic. You could simply Google I'm so serious, you've never Googled Aboriginal academic after this episode, go Google it and see how many Aboriginal academics there are that have written academic papers across the past decades. Because if you say you can't find any, it shows me you've never looked.
Meissa 38:31
Sometimes we need to call that. Call that out for sure.
Meissa 38:49
I just think there's a little bit of hesitancy all the time, and there's no need for it. Just jump in.
Emily 39:00
Yeah and to call back to what Corrinne spoke about in episode one, is that by doing nothing, you're already wrong. So by doing anything you might you might get it. I stuff up. I am an Aboriginal woman, and I stuff up all the time because I am learning as well. I'm a young Aboriginal person in this space. I'm going to mess up, just like you wouldn't expect yourself to go through a whole career, whether that's in Aboriginal space or not, without messing up here or there or having falls. It's okay. It's not about the mess up. It's about how we clean it back up and how we we accept that responsibility and accountability and keep keep going. And I think what a gift to be pulled up when we were wrong because someone trusted us enough to go, Hey, like that was not okay, or maybe you could do it better. I think realising that that is a gift that someone has imparted on us, and reframing the way we think about it is critical. Cool. So talking about different perspectives, because we've heard four different perspectives on this, and we've talked about critical reflection, I think it's also how we want to round out this conversation, is just by hearing the scholars speak about their different perspectives of what decolonization means, because, again, we're not a homogenous group. Yeah, I'm really excited to hear and to, I guess, reflect on these different perceptions, understandings and what decolonization means.
Meissa 40:36
Yes, definitely. And I actually have a lot of thoughts on some of the perspectives that our scholars give after this segment. So let's get into what they say.
Associate Professor Summer Findlay 40:43
Decolonizing is about recognising and understanding that and valuing different ways of generating knowledge, different types of knowledge, and different ways of doing and being right. So for me, when we're talking about decolonizing an institution, we're not necessarily going to take away from the history and the legacy of a Western institution like a university, there are going to be processes and structures in place that probably don't necessarily align with the vast majority of people that aren't from white backgrounds. So you know, if we made this university Aboriginal in all of its ways, however, that would look like we'd be colonising other people, people who come here from India, etc. So for me, it isn't so much about all of the mechanisms, as long as those mechanisms aren't oppressing the ways of knowing, being and doing that other people have. So when I think about what this means as an Aboriginal woman, can an Aboriginal Student or an Aboriginal staff member walk into this university and feel safe, to be here, to feel safe, to generate knowledge in a way and to express themselves in a way that is culturally appropriate for them, will they be heard and understood and valued? So that would be true. Decolonizing for me, it's not an endpoint. I don't think we're ever going to actually, because we are a country that will always be different to what it was pre colonisation. Yeah, so colonisation was a catalyst for change that cannot be undone. Yes, it's like trying to unscramble an egg, but it doesn't mean that those eggs can't look differently or be different to meet a wider range of people's needs.
Professor Corrinne Sullivan 42:27
So rather, I guess a little bit controversially, I'm going to start with, I don't believe in decolonization anymore. I think bullshit. I think it's a buzzword. I think it slips off people's tongues where they don't actually know what it means, and so we're labouring under a real misapprehension of what decolonization is in education.
Emily 42:48
Yeah, I think that's so important to highlight that there are so many views. What are some ways then I guess we can think about improving the Educate educational system for mob?
Professor Corrinne Sullivan 43:05
I think it's naming what you're actually doing. You know, if the goal is to just make sure there's more mob in the room, then say that's the that's the goal, that's the job, that's your only goal, like and call it inclusion, if that's what you want, or diversity, that's what you want. But don't call that decolonizing. You can have 100 Black fellows in a room. It doesn't mean it's a decolonized space, right? Yeah, doesn't mean it's safe, which another word I don't like, doesn't mean it's comfortable, doesn't mean it's made for anyone. Doesn't mean life and liberty has even returned to mob. And so I go with the definition of Tuck and Yang in their very seminal paper, decolonizing decolonization is isn't a metaphor that decolonization is about the life and liberty of indigenous people. So unless you're moving some structures and changing some structures, then that's not what you're doing. So call it what it is, and be honest about what your goal is, because if it is just a decolonize your bookshelf. I mean, seriously, you can just fuck off with that. It doesnt help me, who does that help? I don't see black fellas feeling liberated by that they might have a 30 bucks extra in their pocket if they wrote the book, maybe. 100% and you know, and when they talk about change, I don't want it to be for now, or a little bit of change, or, Oh, we've run out of money. We can't do that like, and I see this in education, like, case wise, as someone who holds, you know, governance roles in universities. Honestly, you just be you think, what are we? Like a hobby for you, like you can pick it up and play with us when you when you can kind of afford it, or when you're feeling good will, because there's no policy or structure that actually keeps these changes local changes. I did that in inverted book and see for the record, huh? For the record, inverted commas. These changes actually don't really affect any meaningful change, because it is based on goodwill. So the second whoever has goodwill, who made a change leaves or changes their mind, then that change stops doing this exactly.
Karlie Stewart 45:19
I suppose my thoughts on the role of decolonization in social work. To me, where I am in my career, that's the whole point of social work, in terms of, you know, the role of decolonization. I think that the social work profession has a lot to answer for, both historically and currently, and the reason for that is because we ultimately work within very Eurocentric paradigms for practice, and that means that all of the things that we do are very Eurocentric. But when you look at the people who are creating frameworks and approaches and discussing frameworks and approaches for social work practice, it's usually white people, and we know that the people who are disproportionately accessing social work services are Aboriginal and Torres Highlander people and non white people. So I mean, when we talk about decolonization and its role in social work, I think it is the point of social work where we're at as a profession. So yeah, that's my opinion. Yeah. I mean, like, what is decolonization, right? So, like, acknowledging that this entire system is white, and the way that we do everything is so white, and we need to move away from that if we expect to bring about any meaningful outcomes as a profession or as individuals working as a part of this profession. That's, that's the core of it, in my opinion.
Emily 46:40
So, as you can hear, there is quite a varied perspective on what each scholar thinks about decolonizing, or what decolonizing looks like. But I know you have some thoughts Meissa, so I'm really keen for you to jump in and hear what you have to say about it.
Meissa 46:58
I actually love that our scholars had differing perspectives on what decolonization means to them, as I hope we've made clear throughout these episodes, mob are not a monolith. We do have differing perspectives across the 250 plus nations that make up our community. However, as you can also see, even through the differing perspectives, we are all still working towards the same goals. And one thing that all of our scholars agreed on in regard to decolonization and decolonizing education is a shift and redistribution of power, because we cannot truly decolonize without that shift in power and without removing Western colonial structures and perspectives as the dominant force in academia.
Emily 47:37
Definitely, I think that was such an important thing to point out, and that, you know, this is not an end point. This is a continuing journey. And I think throughout the conversations and in these final, you know, these reflections from the scholars, that is also something we heard, that this is a journey that we've got to we've got to go, go on, whatever that might look like,
Meissa 48:01
Yeah, and I think like it's important how Summer said as well, is that true Decolonization may not even happen in our lifetimes, but it is still something that we should work towards and make as much as an impact as we can.
Emily 48:12
Love that, I think she said we can't unscramble an egg. And I really loved that, because I think that is often, sometimes the root of tension, particularly with non Indigenous people, of like, well, what we're too far in, like, what are we going to do? And, you know, it's all too hard and, and it is difficult and it is complex and, but, like, we have a really complex history in this country that we often haven't talked about somebody's going to feel icky and yucky, and it is. It's a lot, whole lot of scrambled egg in there. We're not saying, let's make it a fried egg. Let's, let's get it back in the eggshell. We're just saying, let's, let's work on some of these, some of these practices and things in our classrooms, in our systems, within our control, to start this decolonizing work. And I think again, to what you know, to what Karlie said, is, like, the point of social work is to work itself out of a job. But we're not saying that that's going to happen tomorrow. Like, of course, it's not like, that's it's going to take time, you know, to what you said earlier. And what's been a constant theme is reconstructing, reconstructing power dynamics, and really exploring and examining the power dynamics that exist.
Meissa 49:28
And kind of leading on for that, I did want to mention before we finish up our conversations, that while this shift should come from higher ups in university through policies and systematic change, that doesn't absolve individual non Indigenous students or academics from doing this work and making an impact too.
Emily 49:46
Absolutely, and I think that also really plays into what Corinne said. I know Corinne spoke about not, not really believing in decolonization and that you can have 100 Black fellas in a room. And it's not safe, and so we really need to put that onus, back onto our non Indigenous people in these systems to do that work. And with that, it kind of brings you know, these episodes together really beautifully, hearing all the different perspectives that our scholars have and acknowledging all the different perspectives even you and I have within this conversation. So before we round out, do you have any final thoughts, feelings, reflections, Meissa, that you'd like to add on before we officially finish up.
Meissa 50:43
I just wanted to mention that I hope these two episodes Emily and I have created on decolonizing education and social work have given you listeners some ideas or examples on ways you can make an impact in the academia world. I know structures such as academia can seem like they are an immovable force or unable to be altered, but we have the power as individuals to make change, if we're brave enough and committed to building a better future for us all.
Emily 51:06
What a beautiful reflection Meissa, and I think the perfect way to end out this conversation. You know, I just want to say thank you. A huge thank you to all of our scholars who have joined us, and also yourself, Meissa for having this space for these kinds of conversations. And I really hope that, yeah, the listeners got a lot out of it as well.
Meissa 51:31
Thank you to Emily for coming on here and having this yarn with me. And thank you to everyone who's tuned in with us today.
Emily 51:45
Thank you for listening to Social Work Teach and these episodes on decolonizing education and social work.
Meissa 51:52
We hope these episodes have provided valuable insights and inspired you to think critically about our educational systems and practices.
Emily 51:59
We would like to thank our Aboriginal scholars, Anthony McKnight, Summer Finlay, Corinne Sullivan and Karlie Stewart for being part of these conversations and sharing their knowledge.
Meissa 52:12
Their perspective and lived experiences in this field are invaluable, and we're very appreciative they've been able to come have this yarn with us today.
Emily 52:20
We encourage people to critically reflect on their teaching, education and practice and listen and learn from First Nations voices as we work to build a better future together.
Meissa 52:33
If these conversations have brought anything up for you, we encourage you to reach out to support networks and services. You can find some resources in the episode description
Dr Ben Joseph 52:49
You've been listening to the Social Work Teach podcast, a Social Work Media production. The Social Work media team is made up of Professor Mim Fox, Dr Ben Joseph, Lis Murphy and Justin Stech. Special thanks goes to Maddie Stratton to get in contact with us at Social Work Media, please head to our website at www.socialwork.media or connect with us via LinkedIn. Thanks for listening.